Panthera tigris ssp. virgata (Caspian Tiger)

[another specialist]

prolagus said:

Its from my german book, which i would write in the next future;)

[another specialist]

peej2 said:

Is there any information behind the 2 images of the Caspian tigers shot by hunters? Explaining how they hunted or where...or any information like that?

[another specialist]

anotherspecialist said:

Worth a read....

www.savethetigerfund.org/AllAboutTigers/Subspecies/caspian.htm

The Caspian tiger: a Lesson from History
By David Prynn, reprinted with permission from Marwell Zoo News (Summer 2003, No. 116, pages 10-11)

The Caspian tiger is one of the eight varieties that have been described. But have you ever wondered why there are no Caspian tigers in Marwell Zoo? Before answering this question it is necessary to explain more about these great cats and where they came from.

Tigers were already widespread in Asia one and a half million years ago. However, recent genetic research suggests that they nearly became extinct in the late Pleistocene Era, probably about 10,000-12,000 years ago. A small remnant population survived, probably in what is now China. From this area tigers then spread out again, migrating along river valleys following their prey, mostly deer and wild pigs. Although all mainland tigers are very closely related, and may be regarded as regional populations rather than as discrete subspecies, they have developed physical or morphological adaptations to different environmental conditions.

The two varieties of tigers in the former Soviet Union represented the most easterly and westerly populations of the great cat. Amur tigers prowl the rich mixed forests in the southern Russian Far East on the Sea of Japan, while Caspian or Turanian tigers (Panthera tigris virgata) were the most westerly ranging tigers. They inhabited the basins of inland drainage of western and central Asia, wherever there was adequate prey, water and vegetation cover.

These magnificent great cats had thick, plush winter coats usually of a more reddish background colour than Amur tigers, with closer set black or sometimes brown stripes, long white belly fur and beard, though their summer coats were shorter. A little smaller than their Far Eastern relatives, adult male Caspian tigers weighed 170-240 kg and measured 270-290 cm in total length.

They were found from Turkey and Transcaucasia, in the reed beds and gallery forests along the great rivers of Central Asia, east to the edges of the lakes of Lop Nur and Bagrash Kul in Xinjiang Province, formerly known as Chinese Turkestan.

The Caspian tiger’s unique habitat was the seasonally flooded tugai vegetation growing along the great rivers that flow from high mountains and traverse deserts, or around lakes. Tall, dense reed beds grow along the riverside fringed by gallery forests of poplar and willow. These give way to tamarisk shrubs, saxaul and other salt resistant plants on the desert edge. In this dense undergrowth the tigers sometimes stood on their hind legs to obtain a better view. Tigers and their prey, such as Bukhara red deer, roe deer, goitred gazelles and especially wild pigs, had a restricted range in these bands of tugai vegetation and were vulnerable to human disturbance and habitat destruction as these valleys were avenues for agricultural settlement by people.

The tiger played an important part in the culture of the people of southwest Asia. The Tigris River was named after the tiger that in legend carried a pregnant princess across the turbulent river on his back. On the other side she gave birth and so the tiger was associated with the fertility of the river. Usually living creatures are not represented in Islamic art, but in Sufism, one of the branches of Islam, the tiger’s image is represented on carpets and textiles and can be seen on the facades of mosques and other public buildings in Samarkand, Uzbekistan.

Tigers in Central Asia were not usually regarded as a threat to human life and were known to co-exist with human habitation, even close to major towns such as Tashkent. But the spread of settlement, especially Russian immigration into Central Asia from the late nineteenth century, was to lead to their demise. As the riverside vegetation was cleared for cultivation, and rivers tapped for irrigation water, notably for the great expansion in cotton growing from the 1930s, tigers lost their habitat and prey.

In Russian Central Asia in the early decades of the twentieth century military detachments were used to exterminate the tigers, as well as leopards and wolves, ahead of human settlement. Herdsmen regarded tigers as a threat to their livestock, including camels, horses and sheep. As their fine pelts were valuable they were killed by strychnine poison and steel traps, and large bounties were paid for their destruction. Soon the ribbons or bands of tiger habitat were broken up by the spread of human settlement and tiger populations diminished and became more fragmented: bands became spots on the map of Caspian tiger distribution.

Zapovedniks or strict nature reserves established in Soviet Central Asia were too small to support a viable population of tigers and only a few areas of tugai vegetation have survived, perhaps a tenth of the original reed beds and gallery forests. Their extent may now have stabilised but the tigers have gone.

The Caspian tigers’ extermination in Soviet Central Asia was linked to the general environmental destruction that has affected the human inhabitants adversely. The drive by a command economy since the 1930s to concentrate on cotton growing had dire results for people and for tigers. Demands for irrigation water seriously damaged the fragile ecosystem of the region, resulting in a 50% reduction in the area of the Aral Sea and widespread salinity of the soils.

Along the Syr Dar’ya and Amu Dar’ya Rivers and around Lake Balkhash the last resident tigers were killed in the 1930s though there were sightings of vagrant tigers in the 1940s, and in the Vakhsh valley in Tajikistan the last was seen in 1961.

Probably the last Caspian tigers seen in the USSR were in the foothills of the Talysh Mountains and the Lenkoran river basin in southeast Azerbaijan near the Caspian Sea in 1964, but these were probably tigers that had migrated from neighbouring Iran. There, in the southern Caspian littoral of Iran, tigers had once been numerous, and 15-20 may have survived in this region in the1960s. The last tiger reported shot in Iran was in 1957, but a few may have lingered there into the 1970s. The clearing of reed beds and lowland forests on the southern shores of the Caspian Sea—part of the anti-malarial programmes in the 1950s and 1960s—made human settlement easier and deprived the tiger of its habitat. In eastern Turkey, surprisingly, fresh tiger skins were revealed in 1972 but none have been reported since that time.

Far to the east, skirting the forbidding Takla Makan Desert in Xinjiang Province, China, flows the Tarim River. Along this river and around Lop Nur (or Nor) Lake into which the Tarim flowed as a basin of inland drainage, tigers once stalked wild pigs in the reed beds and oases. But by 1920s they had been extirpated. As so much water has been taken for irrigation agriculture along the Tarim and its feeder rivers, Lop Nur Lake has dried up completely and the gallery forest along the rivers, that previously provided the tiger’s habitat, has mostly gone. From the 1960s the Lop Nur desert was used by the Chinese for testing nuclear weapons. Despite this, some wild Bactrian camels survive there.

So, as recently as the 1970s, the last Caspian tigers were exterminated, though the major destruction of their population was in the 1930s. These great cats lived in a vulnerable habitat. They were eliminated as human settlement extended along rivers, around lakes and oases. In such arid regions there was nowhere for them to survive.

The ban on tiger hunting in the USSR in 1947 was too late to rescue the Caspian tiger. However it did help save the few surviving Amur tigers. Their stronghold remains the Sikhote-Alin range, a continuous forest as extensive as England. Despite poaching, their numbers increased from the 1950s to the 1980s and today seem to have stabilised. Both Russian and international nature conservation organisations are working hard to save the Amur tigers and we must ensure that this splendid great cat does not share the same tragic fate as those from Central Asia.

[another specialist]

The last Caspian:



"Colouration resembles that of the Bengal tiger. In winter, the hair is very long, and the tiger has a well developed belly mane and a short nape mane. There are now fewer than 100 Caspian tigers, but their numbers seem to be increasing."

This text was written in 1975 and only five years later the Caspian, locally known as the Hyrcanian or Turan tiger, (Panthera tigris virgata) was declared extinct.

It is commonly stated that the Caspian tiger finally disappeared sometime in the late 1950s; the year given is usually 1959 and the accompanying information often makes reference to the last specimen as having been shot in Golestan National Park, Iran. Some other reports state that the last Caspian was shot in Northern Iran in 1959, and there are even claims of a documented killing of this subspecies at Uludere, Hakkari in Turkey during 1970. Yet other reports say the final Caspian was captured in Northeast Afghanistan in 1997. No one really knows for certain. But even the most frequently quoted date (late 1950s) has almost no evidence to back it up. It appears this date came to be accepted after being quoted by H. Ziaie in "A Field Guide to the Mammals of Iran".

After contact with Iran, it now seems the most evidence reflects an even earlier date of extinction. The area of Iran that last contained Caspian tigers was in fact the eastern region of Mazandaran, Northern Iran. According to E. Firouz (A Guide to the Fauna of Iran, 1999) and H. Tajbakhsh & S. Jamali (Nakhjeeran, 1995) the last tiger was killed in 1947 near "Agh-Ghomish" Village, 10 km from East of Kalaleh, on the way to Minoodasht- Bojnoord.

Historic range for the Caspian tiger:
This tiger once ranged throughout the humid forests, mangroves and grasslands of Afghanistan, Turkey, Mongolia, Iran, Northern Iraq, Azerbaizhan, Turkmenistan (Samarkand, Bukhara, Khiva, Termez, Kunya-Urgench, Merv), Uzbekistan and the Central Asiatic areas of Russia. In these isolated regions ungulates were numerous.

The few remaining tigers faced significant loss of their primary prey species, the boar. The Caspian is known to have followed the migratory herds of their preferred prey animals. In recognition of this the Kazakh people referred to this tiger as the "road" or "travelling leopard".

Reported sightings:
There are still occasional claims of the Caspian tiger being sighted, with some occurring in Afghanistan, (pug marks have occasionally been reported here), and others coming from the more remote forested areas of Turkmenistan. Alas, experts have been unable to find any solid evidence to substantiate these claims and the last reliable sighting was probably at least 30 years ago. It has also been suggested that the 'tiger' sightings may actually be Persian leopards. Any hope of Caspian tigers in Afghanistan could be further dashed as war continues to rage across areas of the country.

Without photographic evidence, expert assessment of pug marks (tiger paw prints), attacks on animals or people, or a sighting by an expert authority, there is presently no good reason to believe that the Caspian still lives.

www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/caspian.html

[another specialist]

peej2 said:

Are there any good paintings of the Caspian? Also..is the one image of a Caspian shot in Iran..of the last tiger shot in Iran?

melanie said:

according to your first question. Here are several links in this thread were you can find images of the Caspian Tiger. To your second question: I don't know.

[another specialist]

peej2 said:

Are there any good paintings of the Caspian? Also..is the one image of a Caspian shot in Iran..of the last tiger shot in Iran?

images of Caspian tiger

Google search for Panthera Tigris Virgata
tinyurl.com/qjbmk

Using google image search is a good way to find images worth a go

[another specialist]

peej2 said:

There used to be a real good image of a Caspian tiger skin from the Nature and Wildlife Museum of Iran on this website and it showed a close up of the face..if any one has this image or knows where to find it that'd be great.

peej2 said:

There used to be a real good image of a Caspian tiger skin from the Nature and Wildlife Museum of Iran on this website and it showed a close up of the face..if any one has this image or knows where to find it that'd be great.

have a look here mate

www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/caspian2.html

[another specialist]

admin said:

Here the following article (it has been mentioned in this thread) online as a pdf:

Can, O.E. 2004. Status, Conservation and Management of Large Carnivores in Turkey. Council of Europe. 29 pages. Strasbourg, France.

EDIT: link replacd by a working link.

[another specialist]

www.lcie.org/Large%20Carnivores%20in%20Turkey.pdf

[another specialist]

Table 1. All known Caspian tiger records from Turkey (from Can & Lise, 2004). Year Location Source & (Type of Record) Notes 1900-1950s Between Mardin and Þanlõurfa Can & Lise (2004)-military, local (sightings) - 1926-1940 Suçeken, Batman Can & Lise (2004)-military personnel (sighting by locals) - 1935-1940 Eruh, Siirt Can & Lise (2004)-military personnel (sighting by locals) - 1940s Viranþehir, Þanlõurfa Can & Lise (2004)-military personnel (sightings by locals) - 1940s Baykan, Siirt Can & Lise (2004)-military personnel (sightings by locals) - 1959 Suçeken, Batman Can & Lise (2004)-questionnaires, military personnel (killed by locals) - 1960 Viranþehir, Þanlõurfa Can & Lise (2004)-military personnel (sighting by locals) - 1960s & 1970s Þõrnak region Can & Lise (2004) – interview with locals (locals used to organize hunts for tiger) * 1970 Uludere, Þõrnak Can & Lise (2004)– military personnel (killed by locals) - 1973 Uludere, Þõrnak (then in Hakkari) Baytop (1974) (tiger skin photographed) ** 1984 Kesmeköprü, Batman Can & Lise (2004) – interview with locals (killed by locals) - 2001 Güçlükonak, Þõrnak Can & Lise (2004) – military personal (sighting by locals) *** 2001 Uludere, Þõrnak Can & Lise (2004) – interview with military officer (sighting) **** Notes: * Locals describe the animals as “leopard-like” but having stripes on both sides’ ** The only confirmed tiger record from Turkey, the animal was killed in February 1970. *** Sighting of an animal reported to the military post. **** Animal seen through night vision binoculars, close to a water source, at 3000 meters a. Animal seen through night vision binoculars, close to a water source, at 3000 meters above sea level.

www.lcie.org/Large%20Carnivores%20in%20Turkey.pdf

Worth a look definately.

[another specialist]

bucardo said:

peej2 said:

Are there any good paintings of the Caspian? Also..is the one image of a Caspian shot in Iran..of the last tiger shot in Iran?

No, the tiger of the last image was shot in 1912. See the uniforms of the men, they are Imperial Russian Forces. The last tiger in Iran was shot in 1959.

[another specialist]

Sighting of an animal reported to the military post. **** Animal seen through night vision binoculars, close to a water source, at 3000 meters a. Animal seen through night vision binoculars, close to a water source, at 3000 meters above sea level.

Has the above been comfirmed as a caspain tiger? or a escapee from a zoo for example.

[another specialist]

baghira said:

I'm founded of caspian tiger, from Tigrovaya Balka, photographed on year 1953, maybe the last time.



And Link:
www.kz/eng/animals/sea/sea05.html

[another specialist]

The text for above states the following

Felis tigris virgata Matsch. Last time was noticed in Tigrovaya balka (tiger's gorge) reservation (upper reaches of Amy-Darya) in 1953.

The photo was not taken in 1953 it say the tiger was last seen in 1953 in the reservation mentioned.

[another specialist]

sebbe67 said:

Shot by Russian soldiers in north-eastern Iran, 1912.

www.moloss.com/breeds/stuvx/s002/


NOTE: This thread should be changed to Caspian Tiger, or something similar

[another specialist]

The Caspian subspecies is also considered unusual because it inhabited a terrain as unique for its arid characteristics as the Siberian tiger's northern regions are for their snow and the Sumatran tiger's home is for its densely overgrown forests.

Sadly, the last formally documented observation of the Caspian tiger occurred in the 1950s, and the animal is therefore now universally presumed to be extinct. There have been recent reports of large cat sightings close to the Caspian Sea coast, where the border of Iran and Turkmenistan meet. Some believe these are tigers; others are sure they are Persian leopards. The Tiger Foundation, in collaboration with Boomiran - an Iranian nature conservation NGO - is currently conducting a on-site investigation of these reports and, at the same time, preparing an extensive report on the Caspian Tiger's likely extinction. Please see the Caspian Tiger Project page in this web site for details.

www.tigerfdn.com/Tigerworld/caspianframe.html

[another specialist]

1. Tadjikistan, Kurgan-Tyube region, Tigrovaya Balka Nature Reserve, 1944, a male. From the Prof. S.U.Stroganov's collection.


2. Tadjikistan, Kurgan-Tyube region, Pyandzh river, 1951, a female. From the Prof. S.U.Stroganov's collection.
1. Lateral view. 2. Front view.

szmn.sbras.ru/picts/Mammalia/Panthera_tigris_r.htm

[another specialist]

peej2 said:

Xinjiang tigers, the world's only tiger species living in the desert, were frequently seen in the Tianshan mountain area and the Tarim River Valley at the end of the 19th century. Historical records show that the Xinjiang tiger was comparatively small in size with light colored stripped fur. Wild boars were their favorite food. A Swedish explorer Sven Hedin reportedly once saw a Xinjiang tiger when exploring the Taklimakan Desert around 1900.

english.people.com.cn/200201/16/eng20020116_88773.shtml

This is the only information on this type of tiger that I can find and I can't find any images either. If any one has more information and some images that would be great.

melanie said:

synonym of Caspian Tiger (which was also called Tarim Tiger).

anotherspecialist said:

related threads here

The Status of the Caspian Tiger in Turkey
extinctanimals.proboards22.com/index.cgi?board=carnivora&action=display&thread=1115309836

The "Tiger" of Samos, the last European Big Cat
extinctanimals.proboards22.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=carnivora&thread=1124200633&page=1

peej2 said:

There is also a museum specimen of a tiger that comes from Mongolia. I'm assuming that this would be a Siberian tiger and not a Caspian.

anotherspecialist said:

peej2 said:

There is also a museum specimen of a tiger that comes from Mongolia. I'm assuming that this would be a Siberian tiger and not a Caspian.

The Caspian Tiger was once found in Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey, Mongolia, and parts of Russia. So its possibly is a Caspian.

peej2 said:

These wouldn't be considered different subspecies of a subspecies? Like the Caspian tiger is around the Caspian sea. Would the tiger in Afghanistan be the Afghanistan tiger, even though it is panthera tigris virgata ?

melanie said:

Tarim Tiger (Pathera tigrus lecoqi)
last observed ca. 1950

montane forest/swamp carnivore native to Dzungaria, Tian Shan, and Tarim Basin

disappeared after hunting for predator control, and for medicine

References:

Harper, F. Extinct and Vanishing Mammals of the Old World QL707.H37 1945 p.304

from an old (and strangely deleted thread) which i have found again at Google)

Melly
Guest
Tarim Tiger
« Thread Started on Feb 16, 2005, 8:04pm »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Noisi,

you've mentioned the Tarim Tiger on your website as fourth extinct Tiger subspecies. What do you know about that subspecies? Was it really valid or could it be the same subspecies like the Amoytiger ?

Melanie
Logged


Noisi
Full Member

member is offline







Joined: Feb 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 173
Location: Germany
Re: Tarim Tiger
« Reply #1 on Feb 16, 2005, 8:14pm »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi !

I really don't know !
I must have seen this name in some list or so, cannot remember.
It must be from a very small place in china, I must search for that again. 'Cannot say something else now, sorry.

Bye Alex
Logged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...Bye Alex...

www.extinct.minks-lang.de

Noisi
Full Member

member is offline







Joined: Feb 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 173
Location: Germany
Re: Tarim Tiger
« Reply #2 on Feb 16, 2005, 8:18pm »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi again !

It should be the same as the Caspian tiger (Panthera tigris virgata), which is belived to be extinct.

Bye Alex
Logged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...Bye Alex...

www.extinct.minks-lang.de

Peter
Administrator

member is offline







Joined: Aug 2003
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,129
Location: The Netherlands
Re: Tarim Tiger
« Reply #3 on Feb 17, 2005, 9:02am »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed! Is a synonym of the Caspian tiger, Panthera tigris virgata.


Quote:IUCN Red List: 1965 - "Status inadequately known-survey required or data sought" as P. tigris lecoqi (Scott 1965)



And from: www.5tigers.org/news/CatNews/cn40/redlist.htm

Quote:Chinese Turkestan tiger Panthera tigris lecoqi (Schwarz, 1916)

4 (b)—Restricted to the Lob-Nor region of Chinese Turkestan and believed to be very scarce, if not extinct.

Now merged with Caspian tiger (Panthera tigris virgata). No confirmed records since fresh skins found in eastern Turkey in 1972.





Logged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Recently Extinct Animals website.
In English and Dutch (Nederlands).

lenny
New Member

member is offline







Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 0
Re: Tarim Tiger
« Reply #4 on May 30, 2005, 4:46pm »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
this is a synonym of the caspian tiger and not valid,

last tiger killed in Tarim river basin, 1920
Logged


another specialist
Expert Member

member is offline







Joined: May 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,606
Location: La Linea, Spain
Re: Tarim Tiger
« Reply #5 on May 31, 2005, 8:58pm »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

May 30, 2005, 4:46pm, lenny wrote:this is a synonym of the caspian tiger and not valid,

last tiger killed in Tarim river basin, 1920




have a look here full story.....

www.savethetigerfund.org/AllAboutTigers/Subspecies/caspian.htm
Logged


another specialist
Expert Member

member is offline







Joined: May 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,606
Location: La Linea, Spain
Re: Tarim Tiger
« Reply #6 on May 31, 2005, 9:01pm »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

May 30, 2005, 4:46pm, lenny wrote:this is a synonym of the caspian tiger and not valid,

last tiger killed in Tarim river basin, 1920



Caspian tiger (extinct):

Last known tiger in the Caucasus region killed in 1922 near Tbilisi, Georgia, after taking domestic livestock (Ognev 1935).

Last known tiger in Turkey killed near Uludere, Hakkari province, in 1970 (Üstay 1990).

Only tiger reported from Iraq killed near Mosul in 1887 (Kock 1990).

Last known tiger in Iran killed in 1959 in Mohammad Reza Shah (now Golestan) II (Vuosalo 1976).

Tiger killed in 1899 near the Lob Nor basin, Xinjiang, China (Ognev 1935). Tigers disappeared from the Tarim river basin in Xinjiang by the 1920s.

Tigers disappeared from the Manas river basin in the Tian Shan mountains, west of Urumqi, in the 1960s.

Last record of the tiger on the Ili river, their last stronghold in the region of Lake Balkhash, dates to 1948.

The last record from the lower reaches of the Amu-Darya river near the Aral Sea was an unconfirmed observation near Nukus in 1968,

while tigers disappeared from the river's lower reaches and the Pyzandh valley, once a stronghold, in the Turkmen-Uzbek-Afghan border region by the early 1970s (Heptner and Sludskii 1972).
In the mid-1800s, tigers were killed 180 km northeast of Atbasar, Kazakhstan and near Barnaul, Russia (Ognev 1935, Mazák 1981: see below for a note on these records).

lynx.uio.no/catfolk/tigerf01.htm

anotherspecialist said:

peej2 said:

These wouldn't be considered different subspecies of a subspecies? Like the Caspian tiger is around the Caspian sea. Would the tiger in Afghanistan be the Afghanistan tiger, even though it is panthera tigris virgata ?

They would all be Caspian tigers but may get given local names but this are just populations of this subspecies.

all from Xinjiang tiger thread which has now been deleted and merged

extinctanimals.proboards22.com/index.cgi?board=carnivora&action=display&thread=1141830936&page=1

[another specialist]

melanie said:

Is anyone here who knows which tiger subspecies were used in the Colosseum games?

admin said:

Probably the Caspian Tiger, Panthera tigris virgata. As this is the only subspecies that used to live within the borders of the Roman Empire. Like Turkey and the Middle East.

temujin said:

And the bengal tiger too.I read that the first tiger wich fought in the roman arenas was a gift from a indian ambassador to the roman emperor Augustus in the year 19 BC.But the caspian was most used.

anotherspecialist said:

I would say definately the Caspian tiger - on the net its mentioned regularly that the romans hunted them so would of captured them also for use in the Colosseum games

carlos said:

The tigress in this roman mosaic shows well the characteristic dense and thin stripes of P. t. virgata:

Compare with this pic:

anotherspecialist said:

great comparasion Carlos - definately a caspian tiger

temujin said:

This is obvious,the Caspian tiger was the subspecies of tiger most acessible to Rome.Very different from lions and leopards,wich were distributed in almost all of the Mediterrean basin.I imagine how would be to bring for Rome a siberian tiger,who lived in an area very distant area from Rome,in the confines of China, an area that of the roman seen point would be a world end.100% of chanches to the tiger deads in the voyage.

anotherspecialist said:

Yes, temujin it seems to be a real obvious choice which we all seem to agree on. So i'll say melanies question is answered.

temujin said:

In accordance with the article in eglish about the tiger in Wikipedia:
"The Caspian tiger was one of two subspecies (along with the Bengal) of tiger that was used by the Romans to battle Roman Gladiators and other animals. It is widely suggested that this tiger was often victorious in combat against the Barbary lion". It's interesting to note that the tigers used in Riddley Scot's film Gladiator(2000) aren't Caspian.It seems to me that they were Siberian tigers,wich was a subspecies very inacessible to romans because it lives in a area very distant from Italy.

carlos said:

temujin said:

It's interesting to note that the tigers used in Riddley Scot's film Gladiator(2000) aren't Caspian.

How could they be? Temujin, if nowbody knows for sure that the Caspian Tiger is still alive or have been alive for the last decades.

It would have been a sensational news among the scientific world to find a living specimen of Panthera tigris virgata in that film.

anotherspecialist said:

temujin I agree with Carlos how could they use Caspian tigers when there ain't any known in captivity to use? the only way the could of done it would be with a computer and camera tricks.

melanie said:

I have found an interesting sentence in the German Wikipedia

The first tiger in Rome was a gift to Emperor Augustus from India in 19 BC. The second tiger was shown to the public during the festive occasion of the opening of the Marcellus theatre in 11 BC. During the marriage of emperor Elagabalus 51 tigers where presented and killed.

translated from here:

de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger

anotherspecialist said:

So we can say for sure that they used Caspian and Bengal tigers in the arenas.

all from Tigers in ancient Rome thread which has now been deleted and merged

extinctanimals.proboards22.com/index.cgi?board=carnivora&action=display&thread=1115309510

[another specialist]

melanie said:

I think it is rather unclear if the Romans and Greeks have really seen the Caspian Tiger. Here is an interesting text:

TIGER, s. The royal tiger was apparently first known to the Greeks by the expedition of Alexander, and a little later by a live one which Seleucus sent to Athens. The animal became, under the Emperors, well known to the Romans, but fell out of the knowledge of Europe in later days, till it again became familiar in India. The Greek and Latin [Greek Text] tigriV, tigris, is said to be from the old Persian word for an arrow, tigra, which gives the modern Pers. (and Hind.) tir.1 Pliny says of the River Tigris: “a celeritate Tigris incipit vocari. Ita appellant Medi sagittam” (vi. 27). In speaking of the animal and its “velocitatis tremendae,” Pliny evidently glances at this etymology, real or imaginary. So does Pausanias probably, in his remarks on its colour. [This view of the origin of the name is accepted by Schrader (Prehist. Ant. of the Aryan Peoples, E.T. 250), who writes: “Nothing like so far back in the history of the Indo- Europeans does the lion’s dreadful rival for supremacy over the beasts, the tiger, go. In India the songs of the Rigveda have nothing to say about him; his name (vyághrá) first occurs in the Atharvaveda, i.e. at a time when the Indian immigration must have extended much farther towards the Ganges; for it is in the reeds and grasses of Bengal that we have to look for the tiger’s proper home. Nor is he mentioned among the beasts of prey in the Avesta. The district of Hyrcania, whose numerous tigers the later writers of antiquity speak of with especial frequency, was then called Vchrkana, ‘wolf-land.’ It is, therefore, not improbable…that the tiger has spread in relatively late times from India over portions of W. and N. Asia.”] c. B.C. 325.—“The Indians think the Tiger ( [Greek Text] ton tigrin) a great deal stronger than the elephant. Nearchus says he saw the skin of a tiger, but did not see the beast itself, and that the Indians assert the tiger to be as big as the biggest horse; whilst in swiftness and strength there is no creature to be compared to him. And when he engages the elephant he springs on its head, and easily throttles it. Moreover, the creatures which we have seen and call tigers are only jackals which are dappled, and of a kind bigger than ordinary jackals.”—Arrian, Indica, xv. We apprehend that this big dappled jackal ( [Greek Text] qwV) is meant for a hyaena.

c. B.C. 322.—“In the island of Tylos…there is also another wonderful thing they say…for there is a certain tree, from which they cut sticks, and these are very handsome articles, having a certain variegated colour, like the skin of a tiger. The wood is very heavy; but if it is struck against any solid substance it shivers like a piece of pottery.”—Theophrastus, H. of Plants, Bk. v. c. 4.

c. B.C. 321.—“And Ulpianus…said: ‘Do we anywhere find the word used a masculine, [Greek Text] ton tigrin for I know that Philemon says thus in his Neaera:


‘A. We’ve seen the tigress ( [Greek Text] thn tigrin) that Seleucus sent us;
Are we not bound to send Seleucus back Some beast in fair exchange?’”
Some beast in fair exchange?

bibliomania.com/2/3/260/1287/20269/1/frameset.html